Today I want to do something quite different.
A few rules, first.
1) Don't attack each other (attack me, if you must).
2) Be concise.
3) Be coherent.
4) Don't just flood me with scritpure...I've already read them. Use scriptures to illustrate principles.
5) Write something pertinent and convincing.
If you are a Calvinist, define and defend your position.
If you are an Armenian, define and defend your position.
Finally: To which of the camps did the apostle, Paul, belong? Prove it.
The best entry will be declared the 2006 winner of the coveted Calvenia.
SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT: By popular demand we are adding a third category it's the niether category category. Same rules.
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A place where I tell you what I think and you can tell me what you think about what I think (but not what you think about what my other readers think)...I think. I write about things of faith and other subjects of interest to me. I hope you like them, too. (By the way, your comments are welcome - see the side bar.)
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About Me
- Joe
- I was born in Miami, Florida, the son of an Air Force officer, traveled the world, was saved at age 17, and have served the Lord since. That's me on the left and my lovely wife, Bonnie...the pretty one...on the right.
Saturday Lessons
The Saturday lessons are Bible Studies that are useful in a Sunday School or Bible Study class. They often contain questions without answers to stimulate the reader's thoughts about a particular Scripture. Feel free to use any or all of the Saturday lesson.
Spiritual Truths You Need to Know
1. The Bible is God's revelation of His character, His love for
His creation and His plan for its redemption. It's not about you, it's all about Him.
His creation and His plan for its redemption. It's not about you, it's all about Him.
2. Everything you need to know about God is found in the
Word of God; nothing you need to know about God is not found in the Word of God and anything you THINK you know about God that's not in the Word of God you just made up.
3. The Father is not the Son and He is not the Spirit, but He is God.
Jesus is not the Father and He is not the Spirit, but He is God.
The Spirit is not the Father and He is not the Son, but He is God.
4. The concept of the Trinity cannot be explained by the mortal minds of man, but it is absolutely Biblical.
5. All proper understanding of Scripture must begin with the absolute sovereignty of God.
6. To properly interpret ANY Scripture, it must be liberally bathed in John 3:16, the pivotal verse of the whole Bible.
7. God is omnipotent; omnipresent and omniscient.
8. Whenever we disagree with some aspect of the character of God (such as His fairness or His justice), it is we who are wrong and must adjust our thinking; for God is always right.
9. Books are great, but they represent the authors’ opinions and conclusions and must never take the place of Scripture as our test.
10. How to know Christ: Admit that you’re a sinner (Romans 3:23); Believe that Jesus is God’s Son (Romans 10:9); Commit to follow Christ and make Him your Lord and Master.
Blogs You'll Like Too, I Think (Note: Listing does not necessarily indicate agreement)
- Albert Mohler
- Christian Life Radio
- Cripplegate, the
- Gospel Coalition, The
- Grace to You (Web Site)
- Grace to You Blog
- Hip and Thigh
- Historia Ecclesiastica
- Joe's Political Blog
- Kingdom FM
- Ligonier Ministries
- Pastor Steve Weaver's Blog
- Pyromaniacs
- Second Nature Journal
- Thought-Provoker, The
- Time of Jacob's Trouble
- Watchman's Bagpipes
- WELL-MEANING GENTLEMEN...
- What Accords with Sound Doctrine
- Wretched Website
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2. I am not looking for strings of commenters arguing with each other, so confine your comments to the topic at hand and address your comments to me, unless you can be exceptionally gracious and polite.
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37 comments:
I'll be watching to see which one to be (grin)
Wait, what about the neither category? ;-)
I'll have to be the one watching on the sidelines, but I can cheer and bring water to the players.
I'll play, as a Calvinist. Ready? Here we go.
Calvinism can be defined by its five points, memorably listed under the acronym TULIP. I'll explain each point and provide one passage to support it, though there are plenty more for all five.
T = Total depravity. I am born under original sin, completely fallen from birth. Apart from God I can do nothing, and only by His grace can I be saved. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit was I convicted to follow the Lord to salvation, and only by the atonement of Jesus' death and resurrection can I continue to love and serve Him with my life; left to my own devices, my nature would have me do exactly the opposite. See Romans 3:9-20.
U = Unconditional election. God knew, before the beginning of time, that I would choose Him. God also foreknew all those who would NOT choose Him. Absolutely no part of me is worthy or could indicate merit as to why I would come to be saved, placing 100% of the sovereignty on God's shoulders. I cannot boast for any aspect of my salvation because I had nothing to do with its blessed arrival in my life. See Ephesians 2:1-10.
L = Limited atonement. Jesus' death on the cross, and subsequent resurrection, secured NOTHING for those who would not choose Him. All believers are guaranteed eternal salvation as a result of His sacrifice... but without trusting in the blood of Christ, the unsaved world continues to be tragically lost. See John 10:1-30.
I = Irresistible grace. When God determines to save someone, nothing can prevent that from happening. He is always in control. Because of my depravity, I was naturally resistent to the Gospel but His strength overcame that and drew me in to His side. There is no force in heaven or earth that is stronger than the grace of God. See John 6:63-71.
P = Perseverance of the saints. Salvation is forever. Jesus puts His seal upon all believers and the moment of rebirth, and once born again it is impossible to regress to our original state. I am a new creation. The old has passed away and the new has come. Once saved, I am always saved. See Romans 8:35-39.
Finally, the issue is not doctrinal to me as much as conceptual: Calvinism recognizes God's absolute, uncompromised sovereignty in every aspect of everything. I feel that Armenianism seeks to decrease His authority (if only a little) and places too much emphasis on mankind. We are not holy, He is. I can't take credit for anything He's done in my life, as I feel that would be stealing glory away from Him. My entire purpose on earth is to increase His glory, and Armenianism is in opposition to that goal.
But honestly, I don't think it's a big issue for Christians to get worked up about. Calvinists and Armenians alike are saved, and the Bible urges us to pursue unity among the believers. This debate is far too often a stumbling block for Christians and the matter should be dropped the moment we start to take it personally.
Sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura, solus Christus, soli Deo gloria. If you're down with these puppies, you're good in my book. :-)
I'll have to sit this out...I have absolutely no idea on any of this...don't know which camp I am in or if I am in any camp...
Oh, looks like I forgot the last part...
The Apostle Paul did not belong in either camp, because neither Calvin nor Arminius had yet been born. Faith was simpler in those days. ;-)
(It also turns out I was spelling Arminianism wrong the whole time, which probably weakens my position somewhat. Oh well.)
Hey, Parker stole my answer!!!Waahhhh!LOL
He belonged to the camp of the Lord! Acts 9:15...The Lord said..."This is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles..."
OK, so far, Parker is ahead in the standings, but, truth be known, I personally like Darlene's and Shelley's answers best.
Where's Antonio when you need him?
Given the new category of neither I offer my argument:
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Calvin; and I of Arminius; and I of Wesley; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Calvin crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Wesley?
nuf sait ;-)
kc takes the lead!!!
Parker: It turns out that I spelled it incorrectly, too. A typical-graphical error.
darlene: The players all subscribe to the living water of Christ, so bring plenty along.
Kc, that was exactly the verse I had in mind, good job on the analogy. I would also like to add the following.
"And unto the Calvinists I became as a Calvinist, that I might gain the Calvinists; to them which be inclined to be Arminian I became as an Arminian, that I might gain the Arminians, and to those outside of either camp I became as without theological ensnarements, yet not without doctrine, but holding firmly to the word of God as my only source of truth. I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some."
1 Cor. 9:20-22 (greatly paraphrased)
I believe that Paul was neither. Every time he mentioned the doctrine of election, it was in the context of the foreknowledge of God, and was addressed to those who had already believed. He did, however, preach that believers were eternally saved.
It is amazing though, that every theological position (mine included) seems to find a way to interpret the writings of Paul to support their own beliefs.
jim and gordon cloud: Phenominal!
well said!
Hi Joe
Here is in short mine
DEPRAVITY
I
believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). I believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). I believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
ELECTION
I
believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30). I believe that God offers salvation to all who will call on His name. Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." I also believe that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:9). However, the Bible also teaches that an invitation (or call) is given to all, but that only a few will accept it.
ATONEMENT
I
believe that Jesus Christ died as a propitiation (a satisfaction of the righteous wrath of God against sin) "for the whole world" (I John 2:2; 4:9-10), and that He redeems and forgives all who will believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation from sin, death, and hell (Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-19). I believe that eternal life is a gift of God (Romans 6:23), and that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus Christ will not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16-18).
I
believe that God's grace is not the result of human effort or worthiness (Romans 3:24-28; 11:6), but is the response of God's mercy and love to those who will believe in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-10). Grace gives to us what we do not deserve nor can earn by our performance (Romans 11:6). I believe that God's grace and mercy can be resisted by us. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, We are not condemned because we have no opportunity to be saved, but a person is condemned because he makes a choice not to believe (John 3:18).
PERSEVERANCE
I
believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 8:38-39), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1). I believe that the promise of Jesus in John 10:27-28 is clear: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." Jesus said in John 6:37, "him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." We have this assurance in Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." I believe that the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).
It is sad that we have to even look between Calvinism or Arminianism because I don"t like ether of these men doctoral statments or there life they live. The truth is found in the word and the gray areas are gray areas. Until the Lord comes , why are we wasting time guessing.
Than You Joe
Doug
Paul didn'tbelong to any camps. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention him going to camp. I'm sure that if he went to camp they would have mentioned it. I don't think camping then was like it is today. He was a tent maker, yes, but a camper -no.
You say "Prove it". I say, first show me the scripture which said he WENT to camp in the first place.
Darlene can I have a pail of water.
LOL Tink. That is awesome!
Tink,
Isn't that a bit hypocritical to say Paul would make tents and yet not go camping. (he he!!)
And all along we thought Joe was talking about theology, how could we be so wrong. I wonder what Paul would think of our modern nylon tents? :)
If Paul were with us to day, would he be in the present tents?
Doug has made great inroads!
OK Joe~ Count me in…
Here it goes Joe, with all my prowess, eloquent articulation, finesse, and poise.
I
Don’t
KNOW!
Were we chosen? Yes, the Bible says so, 1Peter 2:9. Must we respond? Yes, the Bible says so, John. 1:11-12 cf. Colossians 2:6. Am I a Calvinist yes and no… whenever John Calvin proclaims the truth, yes; whenever he does not… then no. The same may be said of Arminius though I must admit I do not have anything in my home written by the latter only the former. How was it all worked out in the eternal counsels of God's decree/s?
I
Don't
KNOW!
What about Paul? He was Paul!
Perhaps, if I am not getting too far outside of the guidelines, there could be a fourth take; both. What would we call that, Calminian?
Tink, I think your on to something...
brother John
do you mind if i jump in here and ask a ? ?
ah joe when you said ( if paul were with us today would he be in the present tents?)
was at a play on words :)
Joe, your cleverness is truly amazing.
Hi Joe,
Was Paul a wigwam or a teepee? Is this question two tents?
I'm back with the water, this time an endless supply so I don't have to keep going back and forth on this. I'm cheering for KC, and I see it this way--even if we do chose sides, those sides are soon fragmented until we are widdled to nothing. When we all look forward, we merge with a focus on one goal, but when we look beside us, we soon lose strength.
So what do I have to do to win this thing, anyway? ;-)
I think "Calvinism" is just a nice label people came up with to describe what already existed and is true. Just because they didn't call it "Calvinism" back in the days of the early chuch doesn't mean that they didn't basically believe the same way as John Calvin later would.
Or maybe they didn't. Who knows. I don't know. I'm just trying to give a simple answer to a complicated question. This is getting in tents.
Seems to me that good doctrine doesn't cease to be good doctrine when somebody gives it a name. The title is just a practical tool used to easily separate orthodoxy from apostasy.
Parker said, "Just because they didn't call it "Calvinism" back in the days of the early chuch doesn't mean that they didn't basically believe the same way as John Calvin later would."
The real questin is not whether they didn't believe the same way as John Calvin later would, but whether they DID believe the same way as John Calvin later would.
jel: Wecome! And yes, you may jump in and ask a question. Oh...you did! OK. A pun my word it WAS a play on words!
forgiven: well written. That certainly puts you in the running.
rose: You may win the trophy for best play on words. Wouldn't that be punny?
j wendell: Assuming that was not a play on words, I really like the "I don't know" defense.
Ladies and gentlemen! A first! Parker has commented twice in one day! He doesn't even comment twice in one day on his own blog! That HAS to count for something.
"Sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura, solus Christus, soli Deo gloria." Is Parker, like, writing in tongues on my blog?
Don't stop me now. Just like jelly, I'm on a roll!
Hrmm...
The Bible both commands and entreats people to believe the gospel, to believe in Christ:
Acts 16:31
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved
2 Cor 5:20
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
Calvinism teaches that people cannot respond to the gospel, that all pleading, imploring, and commanding falls on deaf, totally inable ears.
Their gospel is:
Lam 3:26
It is good that one should hope and wait quietly
For the salvation of the LORD.
Because although we are commanded to implore and beseech and entreat men to believe the gospel, they can't. So those God chose He must force to believe in Him by sovereign imposition.
So their message is functionally: wait and see if you are elect, for if you are, then God will zap you into the kingdom!
The problem is that most people will be waiting their whole lives and will end up in the lake of fire because God neither "loved" them enough to have Christ die for them nor regarded [sic] them enough to force them to believe in Him and love Him.
Antonio
I agree most with j.wendell. The truth of God is entirely too large for my little head to contain. I see His truth in both camps, and where they conflict, I'm led back to the fact that I have a little head. That's why I wear the hat...
This isn't from Paul, but I think it fits:
But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer who acts—this person will be blessed in what he does.
James 1:25 (HCSB)
antonio: Thanks for showing up! I don't know what we would have done without you!
wes kenney: I thank you for coming. Thank you for your input. I had always wondered about the hat.
Back to antonio: "So their message is functionally: wait and see if you are elect, for if you are, then God will zap you into the kingdom!"
I have worked around and with Calvinists all of my life. If that is what they believe, I don't believe they know that's what they believe. They always talk in terms of salvation being free and a gift of God.
Hi Joe
Here I go on Paul...
We are NOT supposed to allow men's doctrines to steer us away from the Truth of God's Word. A good Bible teaching or preacher will always steer us towards Christ and the Word of God, NOT away from It. The Apostle Paul talk to the carnal believers in the church of Corinth were in a similar situation as many of today's believers, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
So I give the Question back to you ..What do you think Paul would say about the Question?
Way to go Joe Iron sharpens Iron..
Thanks Joe
forgiven: Tomorrow's post will answer this to some degree. I think he would have been a-Pauled (sorry...I just can't help myself) at the todo over this stuff. He would insist that we put Jesus at the center of our focus and not take out eyes off of Him for any reason what-so-ever. Period. End-of-discussion. I further think that it is absolutely impossible for us to be a witness to the world as long as we continue to get bogged down in Calvinism VS Arminianism, or any other isms. Key phrase: bogged down. They will ONLY see us as constantly arguing with each other...in fact, they already do.
Paul did not write one single word that did not have as its aim pointing people to Christ. Not one.
He has been wrongly accused of rambling, of parentheticalizing, being prideful and many other things, none of which are true.
He was totally Christ centered.
We should be, too.
Paul was neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian--both of those "isms" arose long after Paul was gone on to be with the Lord.
It's not "Armenian", it's "Arminian". Please read up on it a bit.
I would suggest "Systematic Theology" by Wayne Grudem
I suspect God is somewhat less "systematic" in His theology than Mr. Grudem. More purposeful, but less systematic.
jeff,
Probably true about God's theology. The best thing to do is have our heads in the bible.
My point is that Armenian's are a ethnic people group. Arminian's are those who follow a specific theological system of beliefs.
Paul was a Calvinist due to his road to Damascus experience. If that wan't a perfect example of unconditional election and regeneration preceding faith, I don't know what could possibly be. (Acts 9)
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